Being a multi-talented athlete and strength coach with decades of experience, we can learn a thing or two from listening to Scott Shetler. He’s strong, smart, dangerous, and compassionate – all the marks of an impressive man.
Athlegan coach Bartosz had a chat with Scott:
Hi Scott, how are you? You were a competitive powerlifter a few years ago and now you do Taijiquan and have also picked up jiu-jitsu recently. You train people and run a business. How come a middle-aged, ex-powerlifter can juggle all those activities and still stay fresh and hungry for more challenges? What’s your secret Scott?
I am doing well man, thanks. Hope you are doing well too!
Ha! I love that you went with middle-aged instead of old-man, I appreciate that!
Honestly, I love what I do. Being able to help athletes with their strength and conditioning or my non-athlete clients improve their health and fitness is awesome and I sometimes still can’t believe I am able to make a living doing this.
It is just about finding what you want to do and not straying from that path.
It isn’t all perfect and fun all of the time. I mean I definitely have days where I am tired or lack motivation but so what. My life is hardly difficult.
It drives me crazy when I see people in the fitness industry whining online about how tough their life is. Seriously? You have to film some YouTube videos, or ship some products, or write some programs. Boo-fucking-hoo.
This industry can be quite annoying at times and all these “hustle and grind” people can be hard to take. Seriously, you are not going out and slaying dragons, you are working and doing your job. Get over yourself.
Yes, so I no longer compete in powerlifting and my primary focus on training is martial arts. I have been studying Taijiquan for 9 years, as well as teaching for a couple of years, and training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for close to a year and a half.
I still lift pretty heavy but I have adjusted my training to accommodate BJJ.
I am doing some sort of training 6 days a week. Owning my own training center makes it easy to keep up with my training and my BJJ teacher, Chris Jones, runs his academy, Nucleus BJJ, in the same facility. His mats are literally two feet away from my deadlift platform so that is awesome.
There is no secret to doing what I do. Ultimately all the training I do is directed toward one goal: self-improvement.
I am doing the things I want to do and experience to challenge myself and make myself better. It is about my physical and spiritual development. All the motivation is internal, it has nothing to do with putting it on display.
In fact, I post very little about my training on social media, I mostly focus on sharing training knowledge and information or share what my clients and athletes are accomplishing. That last point has always seemed to be the most important thing for me. As a trainer or coach, people don’t give a shit about you. They care about what you can do for them.
You wouldn’t know it by the state of the “#fitspo #gurus” and self-appointed fitness celebrities on social media who post nothing but selfies or lament about their personal lives every day.
Who knows, maybe I’m the one doing it wrong. Maybe I’ll only post ass shots and shirtless “flexing-but-trying-to-look-like-I’m-not-flexing” photos!
Scott’s diet
I guess your diet plays a big factor in your recovery but also keeps your energy levels high. Or is it just coffee abuse? (I am guilty of that too, so no judging here, haha!) But seriously, we all know the benefits of being plant-based and the role it plays. So, going back to ancient history - what was the reason for you to turn vegan?
Good nutrition is important for sure, as is Death Wish Coffee (I LOVE that stuff!).
I went vegan strictly for ethical reasons when I came to the realization that I was a hypocrite for saying I loved animals and supporting animal rescue organizations, while eating meat and animal-based products.
It’s been a few years, could you please tell us how your diet and training has changed over time?
When I stopped eating meat, I still wasn’t eating healthy.
Over time I learned about nutrition and the importance of making the bulk of what I eat predominately whole plant foods. I’ve gone through periods where I was super strict, even was totally raw for a while, but I’ve found a nice balance of eating mostly healthy whole foods, while still enjoying desserts and other less healthy options.
A normal day for me starts with coffee in the morning. I make my own Death Wish cold brew and usually put some oat milk in it.
Breakfast is either a green smoothie (a normal blend being oat milk, turmeric, peanut butter, vanilla protein powder, flax meal, mixed berries, banana and a shitload of greens and broccoli), or I’ll have oatmeal, usually overnight oats made with a bunch of different seeds, nuts, raisins and cinnamon.
Lunch I either eat at home and it is usually lentils or beans, rice and veggies, salad, etc. Sometimes it is a Beyond Burger or something from a local vegan specialty restaurant – shout out to Acovado Vegan Café!
Dinner is usually something I make at home and bring to the gym. I have been making some big ass salads lately with a bunch of different veggies and beans. Sometimes it is a peanut butter sandwich if I’m in a hurry.
For snacks it is usually fruit, nuts, or a green smoothie.
I use a vegan protein drink with creatine around training and supplement with Complement which is a combo B12/D3/DHA supplement. I also use a vegan glucosamine supplement.
My favorite junk foods are cookies, donuts and non-dairy ice cream.
My training is more to supplement my BJJ training right now.
I still train a conjugate or “Westside” split, but I have dialed back the max effort pressing. I train lower body twice a week, one max effort and one dynamic effort session, and two upper body days that are mainly focused on submaximal strength and hypertrophy work. I also have two “extra” workouts each week where I focus on things like conditioning and weak point training. I try to do a couple cardio workouts a week either running or sled dragging in addition to BJJ 3-4 times a week.
My training goals are more longevity based, so I am not killing myself in the gym. I train hard but prioritize recovery. In addition, I practice Taiji and qigong, and do adequate mobility and flexibility work.
There was also a funny point in that article saying vegans are healthy because we make more health-oriented choices. Does it mean we subconsciously chose a vegan diet as it is the first health-oriented step we could take?
I am not sure. I know some people who gravitated toward a plant-based diet for health reasons and many who did it for ethical reasons.
Personally, I don’t care if you eat French fries or sweet potatoes, if fewer animals are being slaughtered for food that is all I care about. Health is an individual’s choice and responsibility and what the individual chooses to eat is up to them.
However, I do stop listening when people claim that a whole food, plant-based diet is not healthy.
Do you think that, what I like to call, “war of vegans” (I know, I know, but I can’t help to be a little drama queen) will decrease or will it increase? We have all seen those “scientific” articles about mouses being killed in crops or that cooking meat helped with evolution? Do you think people will let go or there is more to come?
I think there is more to come. As long as people think eating a certain way is correct, they will look for “research” that validates their own belief system. That is why I try to avoid these types of debates.
I will gladly talk with people who are curious about vegan and plant-based topics, but I will not argue with people. It is a complete waste of time and I have better things to do with my time.
Not leaving the nutritional side of things yet, I am always amused when I hear people talking about how different diets work and veganism doesn’t. I just can’t believe that people can claim that eating just meat, or being in constant ketosis or eating like a neanderthal can be beneficial but veganism will kill you. Why do you think some people are like that?
It is the same reason people argue about religion and politics. There is a need to be correct, or that my way is the right way.
If someone likes eating meat then the carnivore diet will support their belief, so to them it is “right”. But like I said earlier, the minute someone starts telling me that a plant-based diet isn’t healthy, I stop listening.
I mean you can be an unhealthy vegan right? There is plenty of junk food out there that fits the vegan criteria, but to say fruit is sugar and is bad for you, or that carbs will make you fat, or that amino acids from plants are not as good for building muscle as amino acids from meat and animal based food sources is just stupid.
My friend Mike Mahler has been vegan for a significant portion of his life. If this diet was bad, he’d have been dead a long time ago. Or what about some of these bodybuilders who claim to have been vegan since birth, or vegetarian since birth and eventually became vegan? How are they still alive let alone building impressive muscular physiques?
A question about the nature of man this time. Do you think we were born to be vegan? And we are who we are because we had a chance to discover it? Or there is another factor that played a role?
Honestly, I don’t know the answer to this. But I think as we evolve, we become more compassionate and that compassion extends to all living beings.
I am not the best person to speak on this as I am the furthest thing there is from an enlightened monk!
I am vegan because I love animals, but many people annoy the fuck out of me. I will defend to the death any human’s right to do anything they wish as long as their choices do not hurt another person or being, but there are also a lot of people I would love nothing more than to punch in the fucking throat. Maybe I need to meditate more!
I am asking because I have 2 sisters and a brother. I think we were raised more or less in the same way but not all of us are vegan or even vegetarian. For this question, we need to put our tin foil hat and go a bit si-fi. Is there a vegan-genome in all of us which needs to be awaken by different life episodes?
I don’t know about a genome. That is way above my paygrade as a trainer.
I do believe that certain life episodes may cause a sort of “awakening” that leads people to becoming vegan. Many vegans I know personally have similar stories about when they realized how that steak or burger ended up on their plate and how it was a sort of awakening or enlightenment moment that caused them to become vegan.
There is a disassociation because we only see the final product wrapped in plastic at the grocery store, and that changes when we put a face on our food so to speak, and learn the truth about the industry.
Scott’s training
And how did you get involved in strength sport and later on in training people?
I was always active as a kid. I played baseball growing up but was more interested in stuff like skateboarding and freestyle BMX. I still try to skate as much as I can to this day! I also got into scuba diving, white water rafting, rock climbing and body boarding so adventure sports have always appealed to me. I competed in powerlifting and kettlebell sport for a while as well.
I first became interested in training athletes through Charles Poliquin, a renowned strength coach who unfortunately recently passed away.
I really liked the idea of training athletes who have very specific goals. Finding how to build a strength and conditioning program that enhances their sport performance was always a fun challenge as no two athletes are identical. They have different physical attributes, different strengths and weaknesses, different sport/positional demands, etc.
I have trained many different athletes over the 22 years that I have been doing this, from sports like American football, soccer, swimming, volleyball, MMA, boxing, BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, softball, baseball, powerlifting, kettlebell sport, Parkour, lacrosse, tennis, as well as military, law enforcement and fire fighters.
In addition, I love to train people interested in longevity, health, and fitness. I think the older I get “healthspan” appeals to me far more than “lifespan”.
Most of the old-timers, when asked about their training, are saying that if they could go back in time they wouldn’t push it that hard and go with their training that close to the edge. But do you think that if they didn’t risk it all they wouldn’t be perceived as the greatest? Isn’t the race for greatness some kind of Russian roulette?
I don’t know man. It is tough for me to say if it is or isn’t.
However, in competition, if you are going to be the best you must be willing to take your body past what you thought is possible. Competition and health are two different things.
The higher up the competitive food chain you go, the more you are sacrificing your health.
I have heard many old-time lifters say that you should save your true max efforts for the competition. Louie is known to tell a story of something the late Mel Siff (author of Supertraining) said at a seminar that had a big impact on him. Mel said, “never train minimally, never train maximally, train optimally”.
To that point Louie always talks about only attempting to break a record by 5lbs and saving some for next time. He also talks about the difference between a “training max” and a “competition max”. This is something Zatsiorsky presents in his text “Science and Practice of Strength Training” as well. The training max is done without getting amped up. It is as hard as you can push in training without using external stimulus, snorting ammonia, getting an adrenaline dump, etc.
This is a mistake I see many people make. Every lift you see on Instagram someone is snorting the shit out of an ammonia cap and throwing it to the ground as they make their assault on the bar. This is not sustainable long term.
One of my favorite athletes was the Soviet Weightlifter Yuri Vlasov. If you look up old training footage of him, you will see him calmly squatting and pressing insane weights. No hype, no stupid deadlift dance or psyche up ritual. Just calm, laser-like focus, and insanely smooth lifts.
Scott’s coaching
Ok, so if someone was interested in training for strength what should that person do?
First would be to establish your goals and some sort of way to track progress, such as indicator lifts, body composition, etc. Next, build a huge general fitness base.
People overlook general physical preparation. So many people want to start pulling max effort deadlifts right away. That stuff will come in time.
Instead, build an aerobic base, build muscle mass, achieve decent levels of mobility/flexibility, and become proficient in the technique required of the strength lifts. The bigger your base, the greater your strength results will be.
Do not overlook nutrition. If you are trying to get stronger, eat to get bigger.
The biggest mistake I see people make is they worry about bodyweight early on. Particularly in powerlifting. I see people worrying about cutting to make a weight class when they don’t even have a class 2 total. Get bigger and stronger. You have to earn the right to cut weight and that is usually when your total is at the elite classification level or you are going for a legitimate national or world record.
And let’s say that person is not able to get a live session with a coach. The only chance to get some quality guidance is online help. Unfortunately, everyone with an Instagram account can be an online coach now. What do you think are the main red flags when looking for a decent coach? And what good pointers should be looking for before hiring one?
If someone wants to lift, and if they cannot find a coach, get a group to train with. Solid training partners will trump any “program” out there.
Programs in general are a waste of time. If you are hiring someone as an online coach, they should be building a training plan based on your goals, not giving you a cookie cutter program. Many “coaches” just pump out those cookie cutter programs, though.
I know of a powerlifting coach over here who literally charges people monthly fees while he does nothing more than run their training numbers through the Sheiko app that you can download for something like $10 online. It is ridiculous. That is what many of these online “coaches” do and it is criminal in my opinion.
When looking to hire a coach, don’t look on Instagram. I would be cautious especially if they don’t promote client progress. Testimonials are key. I’ve always said if a “coach” posts more selfies than client progress and testimonials, save your cash.
Look for someone who works with people who have similar goals as yours. Then talk to those clients and get feedback. If a coach will not give you clients to talk to as references, avoid them.
Also, part of online coaching should involve video technique analysis. If coaches are not helping you enhance your technique, they are program designers, not coaches.
In a nutshell, find a legit coach who advertises through a website and not just an Instagram page. Make sure their social media focuses more on their client’s progress and not themselves. Make sure they provide video analysis to correct lifting technique. Make sure they have clients you can speak to regarding their experiences.
Then interview the coach to make sure they are the correct person for you. If they meet the criteria and you feel good about them you will likely have a good experience.
You are working with a lot of fighters. Could please tell us how do you structure your fighters training schedule? Do you want them to do strength training on the same day they train their sport? So they have full days off for recovery or you have no issue with them training 7 days a week?
The training is really individualized but I have found 2-3 bigger strength workouts and 3-5 cardio workouts weekly to be pretty beneficial so, yes, they will usually have to do physical preparation work on days they are training their martial arts.
Many of my combative sports athletes do well with a max effort day and a dynamic effort day as the primary lifting days, then smaller accessory workouts can be done throughout the week for conditioning, muscular endurance, joint integrity, strengthening weak points, etc.
Typically for the dynamic effort work they are doing a lot of jump variations, and belt squat or safety bar box squats with bands.
For max effort work we typically focus on deadlift and good morning variations.
Accessory work we do a lot of walking and loaded carries in the belt squat, a large variety of sled pulling, reverse hypers, back extensions, glute/ham raises, torso/trunk work, kettlebell work, and for upper body we do a lot of floor presses, bandbell bar presses, dumbbell and kettlebell presses, and lots of chin ups and rows.
We focus on neck and grip strength as well.
Cardio workouts can vary from cardiac output/aerobic capacity, to anaerobic training depending on what the athlete specifically needs.
Recovery is extremely important and unfortunately most combative sports athletes tend to over train. The body will adapt to the demands placed on it but the volume of training needs to increase gradually overtime.
I do like for the people I work with to try to schedule at least one day off where they implement some active recovery and restoration strategies.
If you are not recovering, you are not progressing.
As we know the “centre” of the human body is around hips. Do you think that for fighters GPP should be focused around DL and SQ and making hips stronger?
Yes. The deadlift, good morning, and squats (particularly belt squats) are the cornerstone strength exercises in our program.
We also do a lot of kettlebell work and other hip hinge exercises.
Also, sled dragging is severely under-utilized. If there was only one strength and conditioning tool that a combative sports athlete was able to use, it would be the sled in my opinion.
Let’s stay in virtual reality for a bit. I read your article about “super squat program” and a modern twist to it done by a guy. And that got me thinking, do you think that the fitness industry has nothing to offer except reinventing the package for something which stood the test of time? Then, obviously, taking all the credit for it.
Yes. There is nothing new out there. What works today is what has always worked in the past. The root of which is heavy compound lifts and progressive overload. To get stronger you must do progressively more work.
We can debate things like periodization strategies and stuff, and I think there are certain tools like some of the different specialty bars that can be very beneficial, but to quote the late Steve Jeck:
“Maybe you can squat more than Paul Anderson.
Maybe you can press more than Doug Hepburn.
Maybe you can snatch more than Norbert Schemansky.
If not, how about hopping off the ‘progress bandwagon’ of gadgets, gizmos, and gurus and going back about a half century to what actually worked – heavy squats, pushes, and pulls!”
Scott and Westside
You are certified as a coach by Westside Barbell Club. What were the requirements to get it and how hard it was?
Yes, I completed the Westside Barbell Special Strengths Coach certification.
There is a recommended reading list of excellent texts that was broken down into two categories; one was the “essential list” and the other was the “supplemental list”. I owned most of the books already and was quite familiar with them.
The course is a 4-hour timed test and was extremely comprehensive. It was one of the most difficult industry-related courses I’ve ever taken.
They say there is an 80% failure rate for people that take it and it is recommended a minimum of 6 months dedicated study time prior to testing.
I was a bit cocky when I took it since I thought I was familiar with the material. I only had 2 months of dedicated study and managed a passing grade of just over 90%.
I made a few stupid rushed mistakes and should have done much better but in hindsight I should have spent more time studying the course material. I cannot recommend this course to trainers and coaches enough.
Westside Barbell has an opinion of a rough place where only criminals train and by “train” I mean maxing out everything wearing multiply suits. Why there is so much misinformation about that place? And could you please tell us what is so special about the way people train there?
I have only visited the gym to train a handful of times now and am not a member of the gym, so I cannot comment on what they officially do or don’t do
Based on my observation from my visits and getting to speak to Louie and some of the members I would say the biggest misconception is that there is a specific “Westside” program or template. This isn’t the case.
Granted the powerlifters all do the max effort work and dynamic effort work, the accessory stuff is all based on the individual and what they need to improve on.
There is a lot of experimentation and by all accounts the training methods have evolved, and will continue to evolve, over time.
The powerlifters are mostly all equipped competitors but I really never saw them wearing much gear while training. I know that when they are in a circa-max phase and peaking for a contest they are wearing more of their gear but the times I was up there mostly say people wearing belts and wraps.
On dynamic days I believe they tend to wear briefs or a suit with the straps down for some hip support as they tend to train with a very wide stance on the box squat.
Despite this there are many raw lifters who have made impressive numbers training there. A few of them are talked about in the documentary Westside vs. the World. I believe they’ve accomplished a 900lb raw squat, a 700lb raw bench and a 905lb raw deadlift which I believe is a North American raw deadlift record.
I also remember when I started following Westside, Louie had a handful of lifters who could regularly raw bench over 600lbs in training. Those numbers are insane!
The thing that makes that place special is that everyone there wants to be the best. They are putting themselves in an environment that will bring out their absolute best.
It isn’t just powerlifters either. Every time I’ve visited there are fighters, sprinters, and athletes and coaches from different sports visiting and trying to learn something that will help them to get better and improve their training methods.
I don’t understand why so many people shit on Louie and his methods. He has contributed massively to powerlifting and the world of strength and conditioning in general and is one of the most dedicated and focused individuals you will ever meet. He is incredibly generous with his time and gives so much of it to people who visit and want to learn from him.
I feel that unless you have actually visited Louie and the gym, your opinion of what they do there doesn’t matter.
I have listened to and read many of the critiques of Louie and his system and it is obvious that the people critiquing just have a stick up their ass for Louie for some reason. It is obvious that they don’t have an understanding of the training methods or have ever even visited to talk to Louie or learn from the man himself.
Why anyone wouldn’t visit is beyond me. He has an open invitation, all you have to do is call the gym and make the arrangements to visit. He never charges a dime.
If you want to know, you’ve got to go.
I have heard from few powerlifters that after Chris Duffin made his grand goals (2x1000lbs in deadlift and squat) reality, velocity-based training will be next hot thing in strength training? What is your take on that?
I don’t know much about Chris or his programming, but he is an absolute monster and I have heard that he pays attention to bar speed in his training. Louie has been saying that strength is measured in time not in weight for a long time now. All the training Louie recommends is velocity based. Things like power development, explosive strength, and speed strength are all faster velocities while strength speed, circa max, and maximal effort are slow velocities. Isometrics are zero velocity. These must all be used at appropriate times in the training of athletes.
Scott’s business
How were the last few weeks for you? How much the whole COVID-19 situation affected your business?
The last few weeks have been interesting. My business took a hard hit and lost some income but fortunately being a private training center. I am a small operation and have low overhead and own all of my equipment.
Aside from my facility rent and utilities my business has no debt. I do have a small part of my income from my online coaching program so that, plus some of my members who found “creative” ways to train during our shutdown, allowed my to make it through the worst of the downtime pretty well. I also had some members who continued to pay their dues during the shutdown which was amazing, and I am incredibly grateful to them.
I had to close for a month, but thankfully I live in Georgia - we were the last to close-down and the first to re-open. A lot of people were not happy about our Governor’s decision but I will refrain from sharing my political opinions.
Honestly, I think the world would be a much better place if others did that as well!
OK, let’s talk about other things now. You were involved in a quite interesting project with Stic from Dead Prez and his wife. The book which documented the whole experiment is called “Eat plants, lift iron”. Can you please tell us a little about it?
Sure, Stic reached out to me and asked if I would help him with his goal, which was to gain 20lbs of mass while following a whole food, plant-based diet. No supplements, no protein powders, just healthy plant-based foods.
His wife Afya was going to handle his nutrition, and I would take care of his strength training.
His goal was to accomplish this in 4 months, but he ended up making the 20lb gain in about 2.5 months.
At this point we decided to go into a cutting phase to trim off the little bit of body-fat he gained and he ended up netting about 14 of the 20lb gain which was amazing, especially since his body-fat went from 9.5 to 7.5% after the cut.
We all had such a great time working together we decided to document it in the book that became “Eat Plants, Lift Iron”. You can get the book at RGP Fit Club. It is one part Stic’s personal narrative, one part the nutrition plan and recipes Afya used for his gaining and cutting cycles, and one part the strength training plan and methods I utilized with him.
He was also featured in a documentary called “The Veg Effect” and I was really stoked that he invited me to appear in his segment of the documentary.
Afya and Stic are two of the most genuine, nicest people you will ever meet.
Any other projects like that in the works? Something to prove AGAIN that you can do whatever you want while eating just plants?
I have a couple book projects I did where I took personal stories from many people in the vegan community, musicians, athletes, dietitians, trainers, etc. and combined them into two books that 100% of sales go to benefit animal welfare organizations. You can check them out on the “Plant Based Performance” page of my website.
Talking about “proving stuff”, in his “debunking” The Game Changer article Dr Layne Norton made a valid point about vegans discrediting research founded by meat/dairy industry but taking everything as gospel if it’s a study supporting vegan agenda. Don’t you think we are not being too critical if a claim supports our belief?
I am not a scientist so I tend to avoid debates about plant-based nutrition and the science behind it.
I do not follow Layne. I know he is well-educated, but I find him incredibly annoying.
I think there are plenty of people who have uncovered enough research to support the benefits of plant-based nutrition for health and athletic performance and there are enough people out there proving it works. I tend to gravitate toward Dr. Michael Gregor’s work myself.
The debates are annoying because everyone will twist the research to fit their statements, so why bother? We are grown ass adults, do your own research and do what you feel is best for you, and be a good example of it. And most importantly, be HONEST about your achievements.
I think one of the things that makes the vegan athletic community look bad is when vegan athletes get touted as something they are not. Like when a vegan powerlifter gets a federation record for a lift or total and the vegan press runs stories like, “so and so is the strongest lifter in their state, country, or world” it just makes vegans look bad when it is obviously not the case.
Take powerlifting, there are something like 17 different federations and I have personally seen a 425lb deadlift count as a state record in one federation where in another federation the state deadlift record for that same weight class and division was 730lbs. It is ridiculous!
Because of so many different federations, and within each federation you have all the weight class divisions in the men’s and women’s divisions, plus raw, classic raw, single ply, multiply, novice, junior, open, submaster, master 1, master 2, master 3, etc. This creates the possibility of numerous state, national, and world record holders in the same weight class and division. It makes it hard to take the sport seriously.
OK, Scott, before we end I would like to ask you about your business. What are the steps that everyone who would like to start his own gym, should take to make it successful?
I would say start small with the lowest possible overhead.
I started in my basement then eventually moved out into commercial facilities. Own everything. Do not take out a loan to buy equipment. Save your money and buy it outright. You should be bursting at the seams before you think of expanding.
Focus on getting people results. Results are your best form of marketing. A client that is ecstatic about their results will drive in new business. That is the way to build long term relationships and client/member retention.
You do not need a ton of space and a ton of fancy equipment. I have seen huge sport performance facilities with tons of turf and pretty equipment go out of business as fast as they opened, and I have seen private trainers in tiny 500 square foot facilities make $100,000+. In business it is not what you make, it is what you keep.
If you are generating big revenue but you have big expenses and loans to pay, you will not last very long.
A smaller, more niche facility, that offers high quality, result-based services will have a much better shot at making it than a franchise or big box gym.
Thank you for all your time. Last words are yours.
If anyone is interested in visiting my training center or working with me through my online coaching program visit my website.
You can also follow me on Instagram and on Facebook. I have been putting out more content on my YouTube channel, which you can subscribe to.
Thanks for inviting me to do this interview, I really appreciate it! \m/\m/